Church vs. State
From Rzeczpospolita via euro|topics Arkady Rzegocki on the importance of the Church in Poland
Political scientist Arkady Rzegocki of the Jagiellonen University in Cracow explains in an interview with Tomasz P. Terlikowski why the Poles have more faith in the Church than in the State.
“For Poles, and even Polish politicians, there is no contradiction between being a member of the Church and being loyal to the State. Paradoxically, this is a consequence of the weakness of the Polish state. The Polish people don’t identify with the State because they can’t count on it. The State is still perceived as a curse rather than an instrument that strengthens our sense of unity… [In Poland] the Church is one of the few institutions that creates a sense of national community. It is our spiritual and religious tradition that creates something that unites us Poles and provides us with an identity.”
Regardless of which way you look at this, the philosophy behind it is incorrect. The Church is not a tool of political (or ethnic, or cultural) unity. Rather, properly understood, it is the Body of Christ united in building His very non-political kingdom.
Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not from this world. If my Kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from here.
Please, reread the article. Professor Rzegocki is NOT
saying that “the Church is …a tool of political (or ethnic, or cultural) unity.” In fact, he says:
“[In Poland] the Church is one of the few institutions that CREATES a sense of national community. It is our spiritual and religious tradition that CREATES something that unites us Poles and provides us with an identity.â€
The Polish Roman Catholic Church has always fought
to keep anyone from making or using the Church as
“a tool of political (or ethnic, or cultural) unity”,
especially Communists. The Church does not want a
kingdom of this world.
And, even the POLISH NATIONAL Catholic Church accepts
that Catholicism is an important, if not THE MOST
IMPORTANT, element in Polish religiosity. That is why
Bishop Hodur founded the PNCC as a “Polish Catholic”
Church with Polish Bishops, not a Polish Protestant
Church.
Did you mean to post this under the Church vs. State posting? If you did, I can move it for you.
I think that the article tilts in the direction of identity deriving from the Church, but not specifically a Catholic identity, which of needs must be beyond and apart from, or distinct from culture, ethnicity, and state.
The Church is not about creating a national community, but a universal community.
Historically the Polish Church adapted in the manner described in reaction to the Russification and Germanization efforts imposed by the dividing powers. The Austrians (Austro-Hungarian Empire) for their part didn’t attempt to destroy Polish culture, they simply put one culture up against another. Keep them fighting against each other rather than the state.
Still in all, the Church, regardless of where it exists, must make much greater efforts at fostering the apartness of its members. Pay onto Caesar and all that. In society, but not of society to paraphrase.
For Bishop Hodur, agreed, it is about being Catholic – and in our understanding, fully Catholic.
As to cultures, he wrote very clearly on the fact that each culture has gifts to bring to the Church. Those gifts can and should be recognized, even fostered, but only to the extent that they build up the Kingdom — and don’t become an ends in and of themselves.
My mistake – comment should be under Church vs. State
posting. Please move.
The Roman Catholic Church creates a national
community – loyal to its nation – everywhere it
teaches. We are BOTH Catholics and Americans. In
Poland, it is the same; but, there is a larger
percentage of Catholics there. And, the Roman Catholic
Church can only create a universal community through
individual national communities much like the Orthodox
Church. There are the Russian Orthodox Church, the
Greek Orthodox Church, the Serbian Orthodox Church,
etc. But, there is only the Eastern Orthodox Church.
So, Poles are Poles AND Roman Catholics. This was so
even BEFORE the partioning of Poland. Poland always
prided itself as a Roman Catholic nation. Polish
National Catholics object to this because they
believed (incorrectly) that Poles and Polish
Americans would flock to the PNCC. When we didn’t,
PNCC members said that the Roman Catholic Church has
too much power and influence in Poland. The RCC has
its power and influence in Poland because Polish
Roman Catholics respect and support it AND it’s
religious message that we as Christians are “IN this
world but not OF this world.”
As for Bishop Hodur’s ideas about cultures and
religions, he asked (and I paraphrase but can research
his exact words): “The Germans have their own Church –
the Lutheran; the British have their own Church –
the Anglican. Why shouldn’t the Poles have their own
Church separate from Rome?” To answer his question:
because each national Church created its own individual
interpretations of the Bible and religious beliefs which contradicted those of other national Protestant
churches. So, Hodur had his OWN ideas about the
sacraments, individual adult confessions, marriage of
clergy AFTER ordination (non-apostolic), and the
nonexistence of an eternal hell – some of which have
been kept by his Church and some of which have been rejected as “Hodur’s personal, private belief”.
I think that we will continue to disagree, and you and
I know why – I am a loyal Polish Roman Catholic and
you are a loyal Polish National Catholic. But, let
us try to describe the other Church’s beliefs,
teachings, and actions fairly and objectively.
That is something I am struggling with. Does Church have anything to do with national community?
You say we are Catholics and Americans. But what if we considered ourselves Catholics who happen to be citizens of the United States? Does that change our perspective, what we would be willing to do, to accept?
What is the proper relationship and understanding of this relationship? Isn’t that Catholic and American notion just the Americanist heresy – and I know very well that the good sisters and priests diligently taught me this heresy.
I don’t know and I don’t have an answer. What I do know is that country is a conglomeration of philosophies, sins, heresy, both good and bad. Where those things match with the faith – well I can support that. Where they do not, or at least where they impinge on the practice of the faith – I cannot support that.
As for Orthodoxy, I think Orthodoxy is more about the local Church as microcosm of the Universal Church. By its nature it is local, as the Apostolic Church was. They have their struggles with compartmentalization in light of the American experience. There’s plenty of good commentary out there – why is there no American Orthodox Church – or at least why isn’t everyone under Moscow (who, as far as I know, founded Orthodoxy in the Americas).
They key is looking forward to where we are united. For me, that’s at the table of the Lord (which exists, but we don’t see/don’t realize it).
Have mercy on us!
As for Bishop Hodur – I encourage everyone to read him. Then, make your decisions – but read him in totality.
Anyone can say anything, and interpret it in any way they like – that just makes them a pundit. He however was well versed in scripture, theology, Church history, etc. That adds layers of meaning to a body of works – something lost on most of us (and me included, because I’m not educated enough).
As Bishop Grotnik once said to me – everyone says that they know what Bishop Hodur thought – they’ve never read Hodur.
For an excellent explanation of the Americanist heresy,
check out:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/AMERICAN.TXT
Also, I agree with you that it is important to read
Bishop Hodur. Most of his works are still in Polish,
but an excellent selection in English is:
WORKS AND WRITINGS OF FIRST BISHOP FRANCISZEK HODUR
Scranton: Polish National Catholic Church, 1984.
You may be surprised at some of the things he wrote.
It is available at the PNCC Book Dept. I am sorry, I
do not have their address at hand.
Also, check out the PNCC website at:
http://www.pncc.org